In my county, there is an upcoming town hall type meeting with the county commissioners because of an impending tax increase they are proposing on property.

I plan to attend this meeting and to speak.  I don't usually do that kind of thing but I feel I have something to say and I also feel that if we just bitch and moan and don't present our dissent, we're not being good citizens.

Here's what I plan to say (and yeah, it might be a bit long for some posters to endure:-)

"Hello, my name is ____________.  I have lived in this county for over 30 years and in that time, I've held positions with private industry ranging from supervisor to mid-level management.  Each of those companies, without exception, experienced an unacceptable revenue vs. cost ratio much the same as what we're seeing in county government currently.  So, to improve that, the companies made a lot of changes that included reducing many costs that were unnecessary in addition to reducing labor costs which is a major expenditure to both industry AND to government.  As supervisors and managers, we were tasked with streamlining our process and finding ways to combine job responsibilities seeing employees taking on more responsibility and increased workloads.  

I am aware that because of the economic downturn there are government services that must maintain current employment levels within the county.  However, there are many positions in county government that aren't associated with this downturn.  I have also read the statements by county government officials that say that they have already reduced manpower and, as a result, reduced services due to the lack of tax revenue we're experiencing.

However, before we ask our citizens that are already strapped economically and who are experiencing loss of jobs and associated loss of health care to pay more taxes so that county government employees can keep their jobs, I ask the panel to take another look at where more cuts can be made and where responsibilities can be combined and where we can eliminate further positions within our county government before asking for just one more tax increase.  I have seen few, if any, increased taxes ever being reduced.  Once you have the increased tax, it's there forever. 

I ask that the commission go back to the "drawing board" and make those difficult dicisions necessary to keep from asking for just more in taxes so that our county managers and supervisors don't have to make the difficult decisions we, as taxpayers, hire them for in the first place."

Can I get some input on that from you folks.  Don't care if you're a repub or demo.....What's your take on that?

Dap

Get ready for higher taxes-they are coming-taxes-fees-

My advice is to join the democratic party and get a government job.They are always hiring.

What are your counties major expenditures Dap?  Probably schools and health services?  Are there big capital projects in the works or being paid for right now?  Is your county growing, stagnant, or shrinking?  Where can manpower be reduced without affecting quality of life?  If you know the answers to these sorts of things you will be better prepared for any responses you might get from your presentation.  Good luck.

Anonymous said :

Get ready for higher taxes-they are coming-taxes-fees-

My advice is to join the democratic party and get a government job.They are always hiring.

There are only two distinct ways to make a living in this world...productively (through private enterprise and production) and parastically (through government employment, which pays in stolen taxpayer funds).  Some of us prefer, for moral reasons, to be productive rather than parasitic.  I'm betting Dap is one of those.

AdamLove said :

Anonymous said :

Get ready for higher taxes-they are coming-taxes-fees-

My advice is to join the democratic party and get a government job.They are always hiring.

 

There are only two distinct ways to make a living in this world...productively (through private enterprise and production) and parastically (through government employment, which pays in stolen taxpayer funds).  Some of us prefer, for moral reasons, to be productive rather than parasitic.  I'm betting Dap is one of those.

Wow Adam, so police officiers, prison guards, school teachers, engineers, social workers, county nurses, county extention agents, bus mechanics, city planners, office workers, water plant operators, college administrators and EMT's are all parasites?  I'm a thief, morally corrupt?  You've got to be kidding.  As a public school teacher I like to think I'm a productive member of society not a drag on it.  Please explain what you mean and what your vision of society is exactly.  How do we all function without government?

AdamLove said :

Anonymous said :

Get ready for higher taxes-they are coming-taxes-fees-

My advice is to join the democratic party and get a government job.They are always hiring.

 

There are only two distinct ways to make a living in this world...productively (through private enterprise and production) and parastically (through government employment, which pays in stolen taxpayer funds).  Some of us prefer, for moral reasons, to be productive rather than parasitic.  I'm betting Dap is one of those.

Wow Adam, so police officiers, prison guards, school teachers, engineers, social workers, county nurses, county extention agents, bus mechanics, city planners, office workers, water plant operators, college administrators and EMT's are all parasites?  I'm a thief, morally corrupt?  You've got to be kidding.  As a public school teacher I like to think I'm a productive member of society not a drag on it.  Please explain what you mean and what your vision of society is exactly.  How do we all function without government?

AdamLove said :

Anonymous said :

Get ready for higher taxes-they are coming-taxes-fees-

My advice is to join the democratic party and get a government job.They are always hiring.

 

There are only two distinct ways to make a living in this world...productively (through private enterprise and production) and parastically (through government employment, which pays in stolen taxpayer funds).  Some of us prefer, for moral reasons, to be productive rather than parasitic.  I'm betting Dap is one of those.

Wow Adam, so police officiers, prison guards, school teachers, engineers, social workers, county nurses, county extention agents, bus mechanics, city planners, office workers, water plant operators, college administrators and EMT's are all parasites?  I'm a thief, morally corrupt?  You've got to be kidding.  As a public school teacher I like to think I'm a productive member of society not a drag on it.  Please explain what you mean and what your vision of society is exactly.  How do we all function without government?

AdamLove said :

Anonymous said :

Get ready for higher taxes-they are coming-taxes-fees-

My advice is to join the democratic party and get a government job.They are always hiring.

 

There are only two distinct ways to make a living in this world...productively (through private enterprise and production) and parastically (through government employment, which pays in stolen taxpayer funds).  Some of us prefer, for moral reasons, to be productive rather than parasitic.  I'm betting Dap is one of those.

Wow Adam, so police officiers, prison guards, school teachers, engineers, social workers, county nurses, county extention agents, bus mechanics, city planners, office workers, water plant operators, college administrators and EMT's are all parasites?  I'm a thief, morally corrupt?  You've got to be kidding.  As a public school teacher I like to think I'm a productive member of society not a drag on it.  Please explain what you mean and what your vision of society is exactly.  How do we all function without government?

Anonymous said :

AdamLove said :

Anonymous said :

Get ready for higher taxes-they are coming-taxes-fees-

My advice is to join the democratic party and get a government job.They are always hiring.

 

There are only two distinct ways to make a living in this world...productively (through private enterprise and production) and parastically (through government employment, which pays in stolen taxpayer funds).  Some of us prefer, for moral reasons, to be productive rather than parasitic.  I'm betting Dap is one of those.

Wow Adam, so police officiers, prison guards, school teachers, engineers, social workers, county nurses, county extention agents, bus mechanics, city planners, office workers, water plant operators, college administrators and EMT's are all parasites?  I'm a thief, morally corrupt?  You've got to be kidding.  As a public school teacher I like to think I'm a productive member of society not a drag on it.  Please explain what you mean and what your vision of society is exactly.  How do we all function without government?

That was me.  Sorry for the multiple posts, computer issues once again.

Anon...be patient.....try hard to know that the board takes some time to "acknowleged" your post.  Clicking on you post numerous times just makes it less than you want it to be.

Thanks.

Huh? said :

What are your counties major expenditures Dap?  Probably schools and health services?  Are there big capital projects in the works or being paid for right now?  Is your county growing, stagnant, or shrinking?  Where can manpower be reduced without affecting quality of life?  If you know the answers to these sorts of things you will be better prepared for any responses you might get from your presentation.  Good luck.

I know this which is why I want to cover this in my presentation:  This isn't about taking away some services, just making our government employees more dedicated and having our county leaders look at where they can combine positions and have our county employees  be more productive.  Read the quote I've said again on that subject:

"As supervisors and managers, we were tasked with streamlining our process and finding ways to combine job responsibilities seeing employees taking on more responsibility and increased workloads"

In government, it seems that workers are asked somehow to be less productive than in industry.  Yes, I know that to be true as my wife has been involved in that and you would be amazed at the amount of time county government employees are allowed for lunches and being late and leaving early and so forth. 

This is my perspective...and I'm sure there are stories and exceptions to this that can be presented to make it look like these folks are far more "involved" in their work than I've said here.  I am asking for the managers and supervisors to take another look....that's all.  It's not too much to ask given the horrible situation with many of our taxpayers today.

That was me above.....thought I was logged in...sorry.

Dap

Hey, Huh?  I'll let ya know how it turns out.  HAHAHAHAHA...I might get ushered out of the building after all is said and done. 

Dap........................J

We had the same meeting last week and the CC's were not very happy campers. Especially, when the paper reported the story and published the salaries of every county employee.  AND IT WAS AN EYE POPPER!!!

The median income of the county is 33,ooo dollars and almost every management person was making over 100,000 dollars.

There is another meeting next week. I must attend, but I'm sitting in the back, I do not expect calmer minds to prevail.

I have already gotten into a public arguement with the GOP- CC's over the fact that the majority of the county residents are on federal assistance, their children getting free lunch and breakfast. You cannot demean the voters about "cradel to the grave welfare", when they used to be employed, self-sufficient people, who would have to move to China to get their job back.

They just did a tax re -evaluatin last year and now they want to raise the taxes on prpoerty, that is no longer worth what people are currently paying.

If Duke power gets that 12% rate increase, people who are already doing without A/C are not going to afford heat.

We are a poor county with 36,000 residents and spend in excessof 47million just on the schools DO THE MATH, THERE IS NOT ANY MORE MONEY TO BE HAD, especially when 10 percent of the population has become unemployed over the last 6 months.

There is no grasp of reality in goverment at any level.

Deeo5

Huh, the short answer is: voluntarily, without relying on agencies which employ coercive force to obtain a paycheck.

There is no good or service, absolutely none, which government provides that it does not grant to you without first taking it from someone else, usually without their permission or consent. 

Schools, security, transportation, healthcare...all of these things can be (and if you look back in our history just a few years, were) produced through private enterprise, at lower cost, greater efficiency, and, most importantly, through voluntary exchange in a free market. 

Understand, I'm not calling you personally corrupt.  Most people who work for government agencies feel exactly as you do, and strive their hardest to do a good job.  Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that government employs coercive force through the collection of taxes in order to pay the salaries of its employees.  Governments have no factories, no farms, and no goods; thus, they produce no wealth of their own, and can only obtain it by taking it from individuals.

If I as an individual cannot morally take money or property from my neighbor and use it to pay someone to provide me with a service, then I can't justifiably delegate that right to someone else, even someone with an official-sounding title like "commissioner" or "councilman."  The only way I can morally obtain the money or property of another person is if that person gives it to me voluntarily, either as a gift or in exchange for something he or she finds equally valuable. 

The alternative is placing our faith in government, which inevitably leads to abuse of power, a crushing national debt, an out-of-control foreign policy, warrantless wiretapping, indefinite detention of prisoners without recourse to habeas corpus, a debased currency...you know, the stuff you hear about on the news every night.

AdamLove said :

Huh, the short answer is: voluntarily, without relying on agencies which employ coercive force to obtain a paycheck.

There is no good or service, absolutely none, which government provides that it does not grant to you without first taking it from someone else, usually without their permission or consent. 

Schools, security, transportation, healthcare...all of these things can be (and if you look back in our history just a few years, were) produced through private enterprise, at lower cost, greater efficiency, and, most importantly, through voluntary exchange in a free market. 

Understand, I'm not calling you personally corrupt.  Most people who work for government agencies feel exactly as you do, and strive their hardest to do a good job.  Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that government employs coercive force through the collection of taxes in order to pay the salaries of its employees.  Governments have no factories, no farms, and no goods; thus, they produce no wealth of their own, and can only obtain it by taking it from individuals.

If I as an individual cannot morally take money or property from my neighbor and use it to pay someone to provide me with a service, then I can't justifiably delegate that right to someone else, even someone with an official-sounding title like "commissioner" or "councilman."  The only way I can morally obtain the money or property of another person is if that person gives it to me voluntarily, either as a gift or in exchange for something he or she finds equally valuable. 

The alternative is placing our faith in government, which inevitably leads to abuse of power, a crushing national debt, an out-of-control foreign policy, warrantless wiretapping, indefinite detention of prisoners without recourse to habeas corpus, a debased currency...you know, the stuff you hear about on the news every night.

Adam, I honestly believe that government is a "necessary evil" and we must have it to provide basic services to our populace that otherwise wouldn't be available.  You sound like a Libertarian, of sorts, and I'm not entirely of that persuation. We've seen some posts here that appear to say that schools are a big problem with regard to expense...I disagree with that as well.  I think we need our schools and cutting in that area would only be counterproductive. 
 

My whole point of going to the meeting Monday night is to ask the commissioners to take another look...a more in-depth look...at first of all how they're allocating our...repeat "our"....money and secondly to see where services can be combined and streamlined so as to reduce the cost of labor we're paying out for county government employment. 

If you're willing to accept seeing unschooled orphans hunting in garbage cans for food, handicapped people sitting on corners with tip jars, then you could cut government services radically. But most Republicans will tolerate some level of government assistance. Even William McKinley and Herbert Hoover were well known before their presidential term, for using their seats in government to aid the hungry and desperate.

The problem in the last decades has been the creeping levels of entitilement, taxation, and oversight that will lure the productive away from NC. I was just talking to one this morning as I worked my precinct... Going back to Oklahoma, can't stand the licensing and regulation in my city needed to run his small business.

DAP: That's good stuff, but you should sharpen your attack in the future by studying their budget and finding ways to attack their own statisitcs.

If you want to email me at jeffreyhsykes AT gmail I would be happy to talk with you about specifics.

Are you in Rockingham County? We have a meeting tonight as well.

Jeffrey Sykes

Anonymous said :

DAP: That's good stuff, but you should sharpen your attack in the future by studying their budget and finding ways to attack their own statisitcs.

If you want to email me at jeffreyhsykes AT gmail I would be happy to talk with you about specifics.

Are you in Rockingham County? We have a meeting tonight as well.

Jeffrey Sykes

See ya tonight at Rockingham Senior High School.  I should be there around 6:30 or so and I'll be the older, bald-headed white guy with a pretty ugly bandage on my nose/face due to some melanoma surgery I've had recently.

If I do get to speak, it'll be short and sweet kinda like what I've given above. 

I "researched" you and know you're of my same mindset.  Nice to have people that agree with your approach in this kind of situation.

Dap

dap916 said :

Anonymous said :

DAP: That's good stuff, but you should sharpen your attack in the future by studying their budget and finding ways to attack their own statisitcs.

If you want to email me at jeffreyhsykes AT gmail I would be happy to talk with you about specifics.

Are you in Rockingham County? We have a meeting tonight as well.

Jeffrey Sykes

See ya tonight at Rockingham Senior High School.  I should be there around 6:30 or so and I'll be the older, bald-headed white guy with a pretty ugly bandage on my nose/face due to some melanoma surgery I've had recently.

If I do get to speak, it'll be short and sweet kinda like what I've given above. 

I "researched" you and know you're of my same mindset.  Nice to have people that agree with your approach in this kind of situation.

Dap

 

Not sure if you'll see this in time but I've been keeping the twins (grandkids) today and their mother may not get here to pick them up so I can be there.  The wife is working (12-hour worker...ugh), so it's all me, my friend.
 

I'll try to watch ya on Channel 5 if I can get these two calmed down.

AdamLove said :

Huh, the short answer is: voluntarily, without relying on agencies which employ coercive force to obtain a paycheck.

There is no good or service, absolutely none, which government provides that it does not grant to you without first taking it from someone else, usually without their permission or consent. 

Schools, security, transportation, healthcare...all of these things can be (and if you look back in our history just a few years, were) produced through private enterprise, at lower cost, greater efficiency, and, most importantly, through voluntary exchange in a free market. 

Understand, I'm not calling you personally corrupt.  Most people who work for government agencies feel exactly as you do, and strive their hardest to do a good job.  Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that government employs coercive force through the collection of taxes in order to pay the salaries of its employees.  Governments have no factories, no farms, and no goods; thus, they produce no wealth of their own, and can only obtain it by taking it from individuals.

If I as an individual cannot morally take money or property from my neighbor and use it to pay someone to provide me with a service, then I can't justifiably delegate that right to someone else, even someone with an official-sounding title like "commissioner" or "councilman."  The only way I can morally obtain the money or property of another person is if that person gives it to me voluntarily, either as a gift or in exchange for something he or she finds equally valuable. 

The alternative is placing our faith in government, which inevitably leads to abuse of power, a crushing national debt, an out-of-control foreign policy, warrantless wiretapping, indefinite detention of prisoners without recourse to habeas corpus, a debased currency...you know, the stuff you hear about on the news every night.

You are one of those Libertarians aren't you Adam?  What do you call your offshoot group within the GOP, Liberty or something like that?  Do you realize that the philosophy you promote was actually the way our state operated back when the wealthy eastern planters controlled our government.  We were known as "The Rip Van Winkle State".  It worked great!  Taxes were extremely low.  Well actually it worked great for the weathy planters.  They sent their children out of state to boarding school or brought in tutors.  They didn't see the need to build roads or dredge rivers.  Provide government services for the common man, why bother?  Everything was just fine.  Of course the common man didn't have much to say about the matter since the right to vote or hold office was pretty limited for them (us).  You had to own a certain amount of land to vote for certain offices and you had to own a certain amount of land to hold certain offices.  Small businessmen were in an awful fix.  Even if they had a great idea, or product they couldn't get it to market since roads (where they did exist) were basically mud pits.  Farmers (with the exception of the eastern planters) had no practical way to get their goods to market either so they were almost all subsistance farmers.  So much for the free market system.  Did you ever wonder why the three Presidents native to our state were all living in Tenn. when they rose to high office?  Massive numbers of the best and the brightest in our state left because nothing smothered ambition like a lack of government.  How did we dig our way out of the hole we dug ourselves into?  We held a constitutional convention and made it a more democratic state, we started collecting some taxes so we could dredge the rivers and build roads, and bridges.  Government provided the seed money for the establishment of railroads.  We gradually started investing in education.  It took a long time with lots of bumps along the way but we eventually at least weren't the laughing stock of the nation.  Government isn't the answer to all our problems but the absence of governemt is a recipe for total failure.

Anonymous said :

Huh? said :

What are your counties major expenditures Dap?  Probably schools and health services?  Are there big capital projects in the works or being paid for right now?  Is your county growing, stagnant, or shrinking?  Where can manpower be reduced without affecting quality of life?  If you know the answers to these sorts of things you will be better prepared for any responses you might get from your presentation.  Good luck.

 

I know this which is why I want to cover this in my presentation:  This isn't about taking away some services, just making our government employees more dedicated and having our county leaders look at where they can combine positions and have our county employees  be more productive.  Read the quote I've said again on that subject:

"As supervisors and managers, we were tasked with streamlining our process and finding ways to combine job responsibilities seeing employees taking on more responsibility and increased workloads"

In government, it seems that workers are asked somehow to be less productive than in industry.  Yes, I know that to be true as my wife has been involved in that and you would be amazed at the amount of time county government employees are allowed for lunches and being late and leaving early and so forth. 

This is my perspective...and I'm sure there are stories and exceptions to this that can be presented to make it look like these folks are far more "involved" in their work than I've said here.  I am asking for the managers and supervisors to take another look....that's all.  It's not too much to ask given the horrible situation with many of our taxpayers today.

I have seen the same. I as supervisor/manager have been asked to take on more responsibilities (no salary increase) as we had to cut back personnel. I have been working 12 hours a day to keep up with responsibilities. I work very hard to pay my local and state taxes. When I see our county and state personnel drawing huge salaries, outstanding retirement benefits, work when they want to, weeks of paid vacations I get charged! I watched a local police officer helping some poor woman that locked her keys in her car. the officer had his lock tool trying to push it through her window to unlock her door. I was watching and thinking how nice he was. I watched him trying to help her for about 30 minutes. the interesting thing was the entire time he was helping her, he left his police car running with the air condition full blown. I guess he didn't want the police car to be hot when he returned. I wanted to go over and remind him of how expensive gas is and our tax dollars were paying for it.  County employees are lazier then the city employees. but mine and your taxes pay for this and let it happen.

Anonymous said :

I have seen the same. I as supervisor/manager have been asked to take on more responsibilities (no salary increase) as we had to cut back personnel. I have been working 12 hours a day to keep up with responsibilities. I work very hard to pay my local and state taxes. When I see our county and state personnel drawing huge salaries, outstanding retirement benefits, work when they want to, weeks of paid vacations I get charged! I watched a local police officer helping some poor woman that locked her keys in her car. the officer had his lock tool trying to push it through her window to unlock her door. I was watching and thinking how nice he was. I watched him trying to help her for about 30 minutes. the interesting thing was the entire time he was helping her, he left his police car running with the air condition full blown. I guess he didn't want the police car to be hot when he returned. I wanted to go over and remind him of how expensive gas is and our tax dollars were paying for it.  County employees are lazier then the city employees. but mine and your taxes pay for this and let it happen.

I admire your feelings but to be honest, if I was that police officer, I'd probably have left my car running as well.  I doubt that's gonna break us because of the half or full gallon it took to have his air conditioner running.  There are far bigger fish to fry, so to speak.  We shouldn't get to the point that we point to what you've presented to make a point about solving our budget problems.

Sorry to be on the side of the cop.  I personally think he didn't do anything anyone else...including you in that same situation...would do.

Huh? said :

AdamLove said :

Huh, the short answer is: voluntarily, without relying on agencies which employ coercive force to obtain a paycheck.

There is no good or service, absolutely none, which government provides that it does not grant to you without first taking it from someone else, usually without their permission or consent. 

Schools, security, transportation, healthcare...all of these things can be (and if you look back in our history just a few years, were) produced through private enterprise, at lower cost, greater efficiency, and, most importantly, through voluntary exchange in a free market. 

Understand, I'm not calling you personally corrupt.  Most people who work for government agencies feel exactly as you do, and strive their hardest to do a good job.  Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that government employs coercive force through the collection of taxes in order to pay the salaries of its employees.  Governments have no factories, no farms, and no goods; thus, they produce no wealth of their own, and can only obtain it by taking it from individuals.

If I as an individual cannot morally take money or property from my neighbor and use it to pay someone to provide me with a service, then I can't justifiably delegate that right to someone else, even someone with an official-sounding title like "commissioner" or "councilman."  The only way I can morally obtain the money or property of another person is if that person gives it to me voluntarily, either as a gift or in exchange for something he or she finds equally valuable. 

The alternative is placing our faith in government, which inevitably leads to abuse of power, a crushing national debt, an out-of-control foreign policy, warrantless wiretapping, indefinite detention of prisoners without recourse to habeas corpus, a debased currency...you know, the stuff you hear about on the news every night.

You are one of those Libertarians aren't you Adam?  What do you call your offshoot group within the GOP, Liberty or something like that?  Do you realize that the philosophy you promote was actually the way our state operated back when the wealthy eastern planters controlled our government.  We were known as "The Rip Van Winkle State".  It worked great!  Taxes were extremely low.  Well actually it worked great for the weathy planters.  They sent their children out of state to boarding school or brought in tutors.  They didn't see the need to build roads or dredge rivers.  Provide government services for the common man, why bother?  Everything was just fine.  Of course the common man didn't have much to say about the matter since the right to vote or hold office was pretty limited for them (us).  You had to own a certain amount of land to vote for certain offices and you had to own a certain amount of land to hold certain offices.  Small businessmen were in an awful fix.  Even if they had a great idea, or product they couldn't get it to market since roads (where they did exist) were basically mud pits.  Farmers (with the exception of the eastern planters) had no practical way to get their goods to market either so they were almost all subsistance farmers.  So much for the free market system.  Did you ever wonder why the three Presidents native to our state were all living in Tenn. when they rose to high office?  Massive numbers of the best and the brightest in our state left because nothing smothered ambition like a lack of government.  How did we dig our way out of the hole we dug ourselves into?  We held a constitutional convention and made it a more democratic state, we started collecting some taxes so we could dredge the rivers and build roads, and bridges.  Government provided the seed money for the establishment of railroads.  We gradually started investing in education.  It took a long time with lots of bumps along the way but we eventually at least weren't the laughing stock of the nation.  Government isn't the answer to all our problems but the absence of governemt is a recipe for total failure.

I was hoping you would respond to this one Adam.

Huh? said :

Huh? said :

AdamLove said :

Huh, the short answer is: voluntarily, without relying on agencies which employ coercive force to obtain a paycheck.

There is no good or service, absolutely none, which government provides that it does not grant to you without first taking it from someone else, usually without their permission or consent. 

Schools, security, transportation, healthcare...all of these things can be (and if you look back in our history just a few years, were) produced through private enterprise, at lower cost, greater efficiency, and, most importantly, through voluntary exchange in a free market. 

Understand, I'm not calling you personally corrupt.  Most people who work for government agencies feel exactly as you do, and strive their hardest to do a good job.  Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that government employs coercive force through the collection of taxes in order to pay the salaries of its employees.  Governments have no factories, no farms, and no goods; thus, they produce no wealth of their own, and can only obtain it by taking it from individuals.

If I as an individual cannot morally take money or property from my neighbor and use it to pay someone to provide me with a service, then I can't justifiably delegate that right to someone else, even someone with an official-sounding title like "commissioner" or "councilman."  The only way I can morally obtain the money or property of another person is if that person gives it to me voluntarily, either as a gift or in exchange for something he or she finds equally valuable. 

The alternative is placing our faith in government, which inevitably leads to abuse of power, a crushing national debt, an out-of-control foreign policy, warrantless wiretapping, indefinite detention of prisoners without recourse to habeas corpus, a debased currency...you know, the stuff you hear about on the news every night.

You are one of those Libertarians aren't you Adam?  What do you call your offshoot group within the GOP, Liberty or something like that?  Do you realize that the philosophy you promote was actually the way our state operated back when the wealthy eastern planters controlled our government.  We were known as "The Rip Van Winkle State".  It worked great!  Taxes were extremely low.  Well actually it worked great for the weathy planters.  They sent their children out of state to boarding school or brought in tutors.  They didn't see the need to build roads or dredge rivers.  Provide government services for the common man, why bother?  Everything was just fine.  Of course the common man didn't have much to say about the matter since the right to vote or hold office was pretty limited for them (us).  You had to own a certain amount of land to vote for certain offices and you had to own a certain amount of land to hold certain offices.  Small businessmen were in an awful fix.  Even if they had a great idea, or product they couldn't get it to market since roads (where they did exist) were basically mud pits.  Farmers (with the exception of the eastern planters) had no practical way to get their goods to market either so they were almost all subsistance farmers.  So much for the free market system.  Did you ever wonder why the three Presidents native to our state were all living in Tenn. when they rose to high office?  Massive numbers of the best and the brightest in our state left because nothing smothered ambition like a lack of government.  How did we dig our way out of the hole we dug ourselves into?  We held a constitutional convention and made it a more democratic state, we started collecting some taxes so we could dredge the rivers and build roads, and bridges.  Government provided the seed money for the establishment of railroads.  We gradually started investing in education.  It took a long time with lots of bumps along the way but we eventually at least weren't the laughing stock of the nation.  Government isn't the answer to all our problems but the absence of governemt is a recipe for total failure.

I was hoping you would respond to this one Adam.

If not enough government means we don't get roads built and rivers dregded, or bridges built, and too much government means we are over taxed and over governed to the point that the free market begins to fail, then where are we today?  Don't bother to answer, I will let you off the hook.